supersaver

Author Topic: Membership Avatars.  (Read 1388 times)

Offline Glory

Membership Avatars.
«: September 20, 2010, 03:16:14 PM»
I'm unsure how much of a debate can or will be waged on this topic, but let's try!
Please read the opening to understand the topic better, as I raise my main point more clearly in it.

TOPIC

What are your opinions on "membership"s offered by dreams, such as many BAHS, Feral dreams or other, that use free avatars as incentive to sign up for a fee?

OPENING

My example: The Dog Pound uses Nacknars, which can be found for free, as one incentive for joining their membership. As stated when clicking the button to transform into one:
" NacNar is a Members Only Avatar! Donate 1 GD to the dream to become a Member! Contact Blast, Chevy, or Tiponya for more information."
You could weakly argue that a membership offers much more, but upon entering the dream, this is the first mention many will see of this set up. The two free avatars, another free wolf base being the other, are the real visible "oomph!" of the member's perks.
In this way, they are basically selling a free avatar and it constitutes an unethical violation (if not an illegal one).
Even if the Dog Pound has Edward's permission to sell the Nacknar under the guise of a package in the membership, many other dreams do not. Countless BAHS offer such memberships now with avatars they found for free, turning around and making a profit off of their relabeling as "memberships" to avoid Furcadia's art theft watchdogs.

Is the majority of the membership fad an act of thievery (in this walkabout sense) or not?

Be general to address all the dreams, but provide examples and clear thought motive to convince!
Lets debate!
I don't use this website much.


Offline Exmortis

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #1: September 20, 2010, 03:53:27 PM»
I think if you want to do memberships fine. But if you are only going to use something that is already free, what is the point?

Get creative and get some one to make a special avatar they can use. Don't take someone's work ( Even if there was permission for it) and be lazy.

It really doesn't make ME, personally, want to join a membership when I can download the same thing and make my own dream.

What happened to real creativity?

Offline ✨ waifu

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #2: September 20, 2010, 04:40:43 PM»
I think if you want to do memberships fine. But if you are only going to use something that is already free, what is the point?

Get creative and get some one to make a special avatar they can use. Don't take someone's work ( Even if there was permission for it) and be lazy.

It really doesn't make ME, personally, want to join a membership when I can download the same thing and make my own dream.

What happened to real creativity?

A lot of people do not have creativity anymore. And as stated by Glor, a lot of people would pay to use it, instead of making their own dream and dealing with the troubles of patching/etc.

BUT it still isn't right for Dog Pound to make people donate a GD for something free.

Offline Sheikah

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #3: September 20, 2010, 04:41:17 PM»
If anything, I'd donate to a dream if I went there enough/enjoyed being there just for the sake of helping out. Forget their shitty "special" avatars.

Offline Mychelle

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #4: September 20, 2010, 04:45:30 PM»
The way I see it...profiting off of someone else's choice to make something free to the public's use is wrong. =/
Im letting my alts rot. So dont ask.

Offline l a p i s

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #5: September 20, 2010, 05:08:46 PM»
Hah, in all honesty I used to run a dream that did a 'Sponsorship' aka Membership, w/e dreams like to call them. Sure it helps keep the dream going, and sure there's some kids that'll pay for it but again, as someone else mentioned it's more a temptation when there's a special kind of treat in it, not just a generic downloadable avatar plastered in that can be found universally in any dream.
I've talked to Carm over at DP a few times over about his avatar organization, such as how the gryphons Ash made should be implimented on to the Gryffe itself, but he says 'everyone would complain' that it's not public anymore. If so, then he should make that one a membership avatar if it's on such high demand. I'm certain he'll rethink things a bit if shown more outside opinions, such as in this thread.

Offline ✨ waifu

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #6: September 20, 2010, 05:13:38 PM»
Hah, in all honesty I used to run a dream that did a 'Sponsorship' aka Membership, w/e dreams like to call them. Sure it helps keep the dream going, and sure there's some kids that'll pay for it but again, as someone else mentioned it's more a temptation when there's a special kind of treat in it, not just a generic downloadable avatar plastered in that can be found universally in any dream.
I've talked to Carm over at DP a few times over about his avatar organization, such as how the gryphons Ash made should be implimented on to the Gryffe itself, but he says 'everyone would complain' that it's not public anymore. If so, then he should make that one a membership avatar if it's on such high demand. I'm certain he'll rethink things a bit if shown more outside opinions, such as in this thread.


All of this i can understand, since you were the one that owned/made TDAC, right? Miss that place.
If places were how they used to be, take TDAC in example, then i'd be all for paying for something like that tbh. Dog Pound as turned into a troll hang out, therefore i don't pay for anything there since i don't fully enjoy myself, but enjoy being around my friend that hangs there.

Offline l a p i s

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #7: September 20, 2010, 05:28:18 PM»
Goshies, that was awfully flattering. ;^; <3 Thank you much!
At one point, DP did offer 'custom' avatars(avas submitted by the donor), accessable to you and your friends but I can't recall why that idea was scrapped. I'm certain a little reorganization in the avatar lineup would be the most easy fix, unless DP was willing to commission more custom stuff instead to replace the free ones.

Offline Glory

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #8: September 20, 2010, 06:16:06 PM»
Just a note, but I don't mean to demonize any dream in specific. The Dog Pound just happened to be (un)fortunately a good example of a rather popular dream engaging in this practice!


Hah, in all honesty I used to run a dream that did a 'Sponsorship' aka Membership, w/e dreams like to call them. Sure it helps keep the dream going, and sure there's some kids that'll pay for it but again, as someone else mentioned it's more a temptation when there's a special kind of treat in it, not just a generic downloadable avatar plastered in that can be found universally in any dream.

I do not disagree with the concept of memberships/sponsorships. I actually believe it is a very cost effective way to keep a dream up, especially when Furcadia charges 15$ a month for the Group Packages.
I agree with what you're saying at a whole, I believe, but your wording leaves a loophole for them.
If you say a free/generic avatar isn't a special treat, then they will feel okay to continue their practice. The true story is that most patrons of dreams like The Dog Pound are too poor or inexperienced to create their own dream, nor know even about the giant patch databases that exist, and that means that these 'common' avatars are 'special treats' to them. That is why they are popular and dreams realize they can make more money by unethically selling portions of someone else's free patch to the general population.


I've talked to Carm over at DP a few times over about his avatar organization, such as how the gryphons Ash made should be implimented on to the Gryffe itself, but he says 'everyone would complain' that it's not public anymore. If so, then he should make that one a membership avatar if it's on such high demand. I'm certain he'll rethink things a bit if shown more outside opinions, such as in this thread.

I'd love to have more people with differing opinions contribute, so link away to those involved!
It'd be especially interesting to see the reacitons to this allegation of a debate really.
Really I wanted to whisper multiple artists that have been affected by this, but that required a lot of fieldwork. I'd have to tromp into a lot of BAHS or feral dreams. I didn't whisper Edward, maker of the Nacktar, about this... so if anyone knows her and thinks she might be interested in voicing her opinion, want to send her here?
I don't use this website much.

Offline Glory

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #9: September 20, 2010, 06:34:16 PM»
This is just a screenshot of what I quoted in the first post, so I seem a little more reliable and not like I am editing quotes to progress some evil anti-membership agenda!
(Which I wouldn't have anyways, since I am the RAH of a dream myself)


The only edits made:
I put a red circle around the two membership avatars.
Covered up names on the F4 list.
I don't use this website much.

Offline Sheikah

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #10: September 24, 2010, 04:14:15 AM»
I would much rather donate for a custom avatar, something that exists nowhere else in the game, rather than for something I could slap in my dream for free and enjoy just as much. :~(

Offline Julie

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #11: September 24, 2010, 04:33:17 AM»
the dream USED to employ an artist.. unsure what happened to that. this was back when i was staff, but that was a few years ago, and since then i've become disinterested with how the place was run and i mostly just idle.

i know the big gryf-dog is Hoot's avatar, and also pretty sure she =gave- it to the dream owner... i wasnt really paying attention to the convo. but why not use Hoot's custom avatar as a member's av?

i also remember a long time ago, the dream owner idly mentioned comissioning for custom avatars for the dream. i don't know if this is something they just talk/think about, or something they intend to impliment later, but meh.

gonna go ahead and stay out of whether or not it's right/wrong to essentially charge people to use those avs, because quite frankly, i don't care. that's not the only thing that members get. there's a "Members Only" section. and... uh, well, idk what else. i'd have to look it up to see the exact details. not to mention it /is/ helping keep the Dream Package, which is fairly expensive to keep running at $15 a month.

but, i will say this. though the two avatars they are using as incentives have been popular for years... think about how many times you've seen this POPULAR avatar. i definitely would like to see some new, custom avatars if people are going to pay to use them.

not to mention that dragon dog used to be used for the Dragon digo..

Offline Glory

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #12: September 25, 2010, 12:28:41 PM»
gonna go ahead and stay out of whether or not it's right/wrong to essentially charge people to use those avs, because quite frankly, i don't care. that's not the only thing that members get. there's a "Members Only" section. and... uh, well, idk what else. i'd have to look it up to see the exact details. not to mention it /is/ helping keep the Dream Package, which is fairly expensive to keep running at $15 a month.

If you don't care about what makes up this entire debate, if it is right or wrong to charge for free avatars, then don't post.
I say this not to be rude, but because now I am going to rebut your points and try to debate... just for you to not reply, most likely.

You offered no constructive reasoning as to why it is okay to use these avatars to make money.
You just went:
1) it helps keep the group package at 15$ a month
2) It isn't the only thing in the member package and
3) They are popular, so it is okay to use them.

Your first point proves exactly why I made this thread. They are making money off free avatars.
I contest that, since they are free, it is wrong to charge for them.

Secondly, even if they aren't the only thing in the dream package, I've already covered this point. That even if there were many other things in the package, they are still a part of the deal. You're still charging to use the avatars.
It is like making a giant mural that is 95% your own work, but 5% of it is another artist's. It is still using their work to make a profit. It is still wrong because of this. You're taking someone's free work and then making a profit off of it, taking advantage of their generosity.

Third, just because something is popular, doesn't make it okay to make a profit off of it.
Even if you didn't care if your avatars were being sold for profit, someone else would. Majority of the people here are expressing that they would or do have a problem with this practice in all reality.
I don't use this website much.

Offline Julie

Re: Membership Avatars.
«Reply #13: September 26, 2010, 01:46:43 AM»
somewhat intrigued as to why you think i won't reply, and while i'm unable to atm, i'll be getting back to clarify my statements when i can