supersaver

Author Topic: issues with the military?  (Read 4168 times)

Offline Kairi

issues with the military?
«: September 19, 2009, 11:40:21 PM»
alright, so recently i've joined the military (no applause necessary :p) and i've noticed that yes, i get some (and i do mean some) praise, as in, oh, i'm proud of you for fighting for our country, la dee da, but lately i've noticed most americans hate our country's warriors. now, i'm not sure if this will bring up a great debate, but is it even necessary to live in a country and spit at those who defend it? why is it sooo many people hate the military when we are the ones who actually protect the very people who hate us? i'm not sure how to word this perfectly, so it might sound a bit awkward. basically i'm trying to understand why people call themselves americans but despise anything to do with the country. i'm not trying to start an OMG I H8 AMERIKA war, but literally, any ideas on why? personal reasons work too!

also, i haven't been on fam in a while, so excuse the random topic from muah.


Offline Narnia

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #1: September 19, 2009, 11:42:49 PM»
I really don't think that people hate our soldiers. They hate the war.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Offline Kairi

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #2: September 19, 2009, 11:45:08 PM»
I really don't think that people hate our soldiers. They hate the war.
maybe, but i've literally had people angrily yell at me just by seeing me/others in my pool in anything to do with the military. i was wearing my new radical navy hat and this guy walked up to me and was like, "take that (expletive) off". it was ridiculous.

Bam

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #3: September 20, 2009, 12:08:01 PM»
i was also in the military, and for the most part i actually had the opposite happen to me. there were far more people there to say good, positive things than there were people bitching.
from Texas to Mississippi to Maryland and then to Illinois, anywhere I happened to go off the base or post, like Wal Mart or the mall or something, people would thank me for serving and i'd get anything from a handshake to a hug.

as far as the hate goes, most of them are just srsly ignorant and can't separate the men and women in uniform who are giving themselves up to serve and protect the country and constitution from the people in office making the actual decisions.

they also conveniently forget that if it weren't for people like you and i, that they would have to be the ones in uniform via selective service/the draft.

Offline Dylan

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #4: September 21, 2009, 12:03:26 PM»
I really don't think that people hate our soldiers. They hate the war.

That's exactly it.

maybe, but i've literally had people angrily yell at me just by seeing me/others in my pool in anything to do with the military. i was wearing my new radical navy hat and this guy walked up to me and was like, "take that (expletive) off". it was ridiculous.

I think they disagree with the war, but instead of doing something about it - whether it is getting involved in anti-war groups or with politicians against the war they'd rather take it out on those directly involved in the war, those going overseas or those being prepared to do so.

My boyfriend is an infanteer and he is leaving for Afghanistan in a week and his roomate is leaving in a few days, I don't agree with what may be going on over there but I m not going to take it out on them. Why? Because I support him, his roommate and the troops over all (whether it is here in Canada or the US) but maybe not that they are stil lthere or how they're doing it. (Gag, that sounded like some patriotic bs.)

Maybe the area where you live people are more against it? I have yet to see anyone call my boyfriend down, or heard of it happening. I don't know if it's different in Canada than in it is in the US, but it's a bit ridiculous that they go that far against you.

Offline Harley

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #5: September 21, 2009, 12:32:53 PM»
They think that you, personally, are just helping the war by serving instead of sitting back and not doing anything about it.  I served, and I'm shocked you get that sort of shit too.  If anyone says anything to you, just say you're proud to serve your country and walk away.  You're a part of a very small number of people (maybe 2%) who are willing to serve.  Be proud of yourself.

Offline Glory

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #6: September 21, 2009, 02:53:35 PM»
You're getting trained with tax payer money to fight in a war tax payers don't like.
Not saying I don't respect you for being there to protect our country, but that is just what a lot of people are thinking right now.

I'd just look on the bright side: You do get praise, you probably get a lot less insulted than police officers (just refer to a ton of rap songs), and you can serve your country (I can't). c:
I don't use this website much.

Cup Ramen

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #7: September 21, 2009, 03:15:53 PM»
A lot of people listen to the others who say "OMG THIS WAR SUCKS" without actually educating themselves. While I don't think we should be at war right now, I do not hate our soldiers. I respect them and thank them. I just disagree with their war, that's all. I don't like that tax payer's money is going to it while we're all in an economic depression.

Some people also don't know the difference between something they should simply disagree with and things they need to have a cow over.

Edit: Also, there are those of us who believe that killing as a soldier is no better than killing as a criminal. I am one of them. I understand that most soldiers wouldn't want to kill anybody, but when it becomes necessary, they use the "defending our country" thing to justify it. If only people were capable of negotiating instead of BOOM BOOM BOOM.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:18:21 PM by Wings »

Offline Sync

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #8: September 21, 2009, 04:22:25 PM»
Edit: Also, there are those of us who believe that killing as a soldier is no better than killing as a criminal. I am one of them. I understand that most soldiers wouldn't want to kill anybody, but when it becomes necessary, they use the "defending our country" thing to justify it. If only people were capable of negotiating instead of BOOM BOOM BOOM.
actually, it'd probably be under justified self defense because if you're on field you're shooting at people who are shooting at you. i dunno about you, but i'm going to assume that anyone that has a gun pointed at my face and ready to fire is planning to kill me and above negotiation.

please correct my ignorance if any was made in that statement. i'm not really sure of the specifics of the battlefield or who starts what fight. just saying when it reeaally comes down to it, you'll be shooting at them just because they're shooting at you, and vice versa.

anyway, back on topic, yeah most people just don't agree with the war, as everyone above said. i've heard anecdotes from soldier of the iraqi war saying they were approached by kids who bitched them out for not ~*disobeying orders*~. it's pretty terrible.

Cup Ramen

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #9: September 21, 2009, 04:48:29 PM»
Edit: Also, there are those of us who believe that killing as a soldier is no better than killing as a criminal. I am one of them. I understand that most soldiers wouldn't want to kill anybody, but when it becomes necessary, they use the "defending our country" thing to justify it. If only people were capable of negotiating instead of BOOM BOOM BOOM.
actually, it'd probably be under justified self defense because if you're on field you're shooting at people who are shooting at you. i dunno about you, but i'm going to assume that anyone that has a gun pointed at my face and ready to fire is planning to kill me and above negotiation.

please correct my ignorance if any was made in that statement. i'm not really sure of the specifics of the battlefield or who starts what fight. just saying when it reeaally comes down to it, you'll be shooting at them just because they're shooting at you, and vice versa.

anyway, back on topic, yeah most people just don't agree with the war, as everyone above said. i've heard anecdotes from soldier of the iraqi war saying they were approached by kids who bitched them out for not ~*disobeying orders*~. it's pretty terrible.

It only takes one gun to start the volley. That gun is the worst, in my opinion.

Offline Sync

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #10: September 21, 2009, 07:36:11 PM»
yeah, there is also ONE guy who shoots first and a thousand behind them that deserve to properly defend themselves.

Bam

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #11: September 22, 2009, 03:41:43 PM»
@wings
there are more circumstances than you can possibly fathom over there right now.
people are ignorant if they think it's not difficult to tell who is what over there, whether people who cannot speak your language are running at you screaming bloody fucking murder because they're hurt, terrified, or about to blow you and your buddies skyward.
sadly, sometimes its too late, and many people either die over there or pull the trigger thinking they're about to die and suffer the consequences one way or another.
because people are so against this war, soldiers who genuinely thought they were about to be attacked and mere seconds from death get the shaft when they get back home because they are then put on trial and could very easily be found guilty even if their intentions were good.
people assume so much when it comes to 'soldiers getting away with murder'.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 03:46:15 PM by Bam »

Offline Ilsa

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #12: September 23, 2009, 07:24:35 PM»
I've got a fairly negative view of the military due to several negative experiences with military people. I recognize that not all military people are like this, however, I tend to be uneasy around them for this reason.

They seem to have this sense of entitlement, and demand special treatment. They've decided that the average tax payer owe them utmost respect respect and special treatment because they've chosen to enlist.

They look down upon the average citizen. They tell us they're defending our freedom as they go off to bully some foreign country in the middle east to torment arabs for their oil. Our freedom isn't under attack.

And still, we have terrorist cells, who do wish to attack our freedom, in our own homeland. We've got gangs, hate groups (KKK) and cults (Scientology, the religious right).

The US will spend $651.2 billion in tax payer dollars this year on military stuff. Military people forget who's paying them: The people.

And the tax money of the people could be better spent elsewhere than former president Bush's bullying of arabs. Imagine where some of that $651.2 billion dollars could go if it wasn't being wasted on military spending?

How about trying to save the lives of the 22,000 adult Americans who will die this year without healthcare?

Electric Guitar

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #13: September 23, 2009, 08:00:54 PM»
Are you kidding me? Your logic irritates me in a lot of ways.

First of all, most of military is made up of good-natured humble people. The peons who believe they are somehow better then the average citizen get a heavy dose of discipline from their instructor. And although we shouldn't kiss the ground where they walk they do deserve respect. They are over there fighting for something believe in just so you can comfortably sit on your computer and complain about them.  I am very grateful for what they do. Could you do it? I couldn't.

Second, I believe they have a pretty damn good reason to be over there. 9/11 pretty much demonstrated what a man with a plan can do. And even though we aren't occupying Afghanistan as much, Iraq was still a pretty big threat. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that Sudamm Hussein shouldn't have been stopped? Or should we have let him continue to do his own thing like what we did with Hitler? The man was killing innocent people and harboring terrorist groups like Al Quaeda.

As for money I agree that I would like to see that money go elsewhere.  However, considering how unprotected our borders as it is, I would feel safer if they were well supplied. That stuff gets expensive.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 08:29:11 PM by Electric Guitar »

Offline Narnia

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #14: September 23, 2009, 09:22:54 PM»
Iraq was not a threat to the US.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Electric Guitar

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #15: September 24, 2009, 07:37:44 AM»
It wasn't necessarily a threat to us, but there were a lot of bad stuff happenening in that country. He had the potential to become a threat. I dunno. It's a tough issue. People will tell you different reasons why we should be or shouldn't be depending on who you ask. It doesn't matter anyway, because I think Obama was planning on pulling troops out of there when he can. I'm kinda scared to see what will be result of that country after the military occupation is gone.

Offline Ilsa

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #16: September 24, 2009, 02:43:20 PM»
Are you kidding me? Your logic irritates me in a lot of ways.

First of all, most of military is made up of good-natured humble people. The peons who believe they are somehow better then the average citizen get a heavy dose of discipline from their instructor.

The people I've met copping this attitude are out of their basic training and discipline phase and are out there sitting on their asses stationed in places that aren't actually seeing active combat.

A majority of military people I've met do have huge egos and do believe that the lesser people, the civilians, should worship them.

And although we shouldn't kiss the ground where they walk they do deserve respect. They are over there fighting for something believe in just so you can comfortably sit on your computer and complain about them.

They're fighting for oil, Christianity, and the right wing fundamentalist way.

There are plenty of other ways people can actually do positive things for the world without going and shooting Muslims.

At the time I was being given shit by snotty military brats I was also working for a tech company developing new medical technologies, technologies that save lives rather than take them.

I probably did more for humanity with those medical devices than a soldier over in the Iraq oil war will ever do for humanity.

I am very grateful for what they do. Could you do it? I couldn't.

Second, I believe they have a pretty damn good reason to be over there. 9/11 pretty much demonstrated what a man with a plan can do. And even though we aren't occupying Afghanistan as much, Iraq was still a pretty big threat.

Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. We have little business being there except for W wanting to pick a fight and using bullshit excuses like WMDs, none of which were ever found.

Ever stopped to think about why the fundamentalist Muslims attacked America in the first place? Perhaps they saw a fundamentalist regime coming to power in America.

Can you look me in the eye and tell me that Sudamm Hussein shouldn't have been stopped?

What does Suddam Hussein have to do with 9/11? Absolutely nothing. What business does the US military have in Iraq? None.

Should he have been stopped? Maybe. Could this have been dealt with without deploying thousands of people to go over and shoot Arabs? Surely we could have sent in special ops and assassinated him.

Instead we're wasting billions in tax dollars that could be better spent taking care of the people.

Or should we have let him continue to do his own thing like what we did with Hitler? The man was killing innocent people and harboring terrorist groups like Al Quaeda.

Or we could have chosen a different option and remove him without deploying thousands of people and wasting billions of dollars. Gee.

Saddam was harboring Al Qaeda? Wait, what?
The consensus of intelligence experts has been that these contacts never led to an operational relationship, and that consensus is backed up by reports from the independent 9/11 Commission and by declassified Defense Department reports as well as by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, whose 2006 report of Phase II of its investigation into prewar intelligence reports concluded that there was no evidence of ties between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda.

As for money I agree that I would like to see that money go elsewhere.  However, considering how unprotected our borders as it is, I would feel safer if they were well supplied. That stuff gets expensive.

Why not deal with the terrorists in the US of A?

It wasn't necessarily a threat to us, but there were a lot of bad stuff happenening in that country.

And a lot of bad things are happening in this country, such as lack of caring for our own and possibly being on the brink of a second great depression. People that could be saved are dying and killing themselves.

He had the potential to become a threat. I dunno. It's a tough issue.

It's not a tough issue at all. And there are terrorist regimes right here in the USA who are a threat. Let's deal with domestic issues before harassing Arabs for oil.

link=topic=29373.msg438846#msg438846 date=1253795864]People will tell you different reasons why we should be or shouldn't be depending on who you ask. It doesn't matter anyway, because I think Obama was planning on pulling troops out of there when he can. I'm kinda scared to see what will be result of that country after the military occupation is gone.
[/quote]

We wrongfully invaded, now we're spending tons of money trying to fix what we broke. Chances are when we pull out they'll continue to hate us.


And.

Or should we have let him continue to do his own thing like what we did with Hitler?

/thread
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 02:50:03 PM by Ilsa »

Offline Katie

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #17: September 25, 2009, 03:57:59 PM»
I agree with almost everything Ilsa has said.
9/11 had nothing to do with the Iraq war. 9/11 was, in my humble opinion, an inside job; a controlled demolition of the twin towers and a fake plane crash into the pentagon to instigate mass fear (and ultimately, control) over the American people. When there is a common "enemy," there is a reason to go to war; and in this case, the war was for oil - not to take out Saddam, not to erase terrorism, and not for "revenge" on behalf of "9/11."

This is not a new trick by our government, and has been used several times in the past to find excuses to go to war. World War I is a great example; Germany says, "Hey guys, don't send any ships into our waters, or we'll sink them. Fair warning." So what do we do? We send an ocean liner, the Lusitania, with nearly 2,000 passengers on board, right into German waters. It gets torpedoed, it sinks, people die, Americans get pissed, government gets happy, and boom! America is now in World War I.

War is revenue.


But anyway. Back on topic:

I have found that there are quite a few (particularly marines? Might just be me...) who demand and expect instantaneous respect because they've chosen to suit up. I know that several of our troops are in the military because they really feel like they have no other option. Additionally, several of our troops are intelligent people who could not afford college and will be able to attend college thanks to the military. And so on and so forth.
So no, I don't think all soldiers are bad - but I don't think all cops are good, either. Everyone enlists for different reasons. I find that when our soldiers enlist for good reasons, they have a different attitude and a different way of "coming home," and they earn my respect. But just like there are twisted cops, there are twisted soldiers. I think it's probably like that in every career. Especially politics. (;
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Cup Ramen

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #18: September 25, 2009, 07:44:51 PM»
I'm probably just being too innocent, but I find it hard to be believe that the government would cause events to kill people on purpose...

Offline Narnia

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #19: September 25, 2009, 07:46:26 PM»
Why wouldn't they?

Wars generally improve the country's economy. However, Bush messed this one up.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Cup Ramen

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #20: September 25, 2009, 08:11:08 PM»
I don't even know what to think, because I'll admit that I'm not very well informed. That, and I'm pretty much not allowed to have opinions that don't reflect those of my parents/the Catholic church, so... :D

As far as economics goes... I was too young when the war started to understand things like this, but did the economy need much improvement?

I personally would find it extremely difficult to do something that I know will cause that much misery and death.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 08:14:22 PM by Wings »

Offline Narnia

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #21: September 26, 2009, 02:32:14 AM»
Actually at the time the war started the economy was in pretty good shape.

However, the popular opinion of the president sucked because he stole the election from Al Gore. Another Wars tend to do is raise the approval rating of the president. Bush tanked on that too.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Electric Guitar

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #22: September 26, 2009, 07:43:32 AM»
To do something like 9/11? I don't know if I want to believe that one. Wouldn't they have lost family and friends too? Plus didn't Al Quaeda own up to it? Maybe they were crazy enough to take the blame because they wanted people to believe they had done it. I dunno. It's just a very big accusation to make. Most of the people I've met look down on those who  think 9/11 was caused by our government.

Maybe as Wings has put it, I've been uninformed too.  Though I still stand on my belief in respect for the military. The guys who  throw around their military status however, aren't deserving of much.

Most of the American population believes that Bush failed on an epic level, me being one of them.

Offline Ilsa

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #23: September 26, 2009, 02:36:01 PM»
I can't say that I believe the US government set up 9/11.

I can, however, understand why Al Qaeda and other fundamentalist Muslim groups may have felt inclined to make what appears to be to the layman as unprovoked attack on the US.

Take a good objective look at the Republican party during the Bush administration. Creationism, Intelligent design, faith based initiatives, anti-choice and anti-gay stances. The Republican party is in bed with the church and has become the fundamentalist Christian party.

We talk about Muslim fundamentalist regimes over in the middle east, when we fail to realize we spent eight years under the rule of an equally if not more dangerous fundamentalist regime.

Yeah. I wrote it: The Religious Right of the US of A is a fundamentalist regime, it just happens to be a Christian regime instead of a Muslim regime.

America is a military super power.
And it fell under the control of religious extremists.

Perhaps the fundamentalist Muslims felt threatened by the big powerful country falling under rule of a group which wishes to force their own religious beliefs on everyone --and-- has the power to nuke and beat up smaller nations easily. I can't blame them for attacking first, it just sucks they did it to innocent civilians.

If my freedoms (to be an Atheist) and rights (right to choose) were to have been taken away by the regime, I can't say I wouldn't go Jihad on some psycho-fundie ass.

Electric Guitar

Re: issues with the military?
«Reply #24: September 28, 2009, 10:48:33 AM»
That makes a lot sense. Kinda scarey when you think about it.