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Author Topic: "Guilty by association"  (Read 4587 times)

Offline Sheikah

"Guilty by association"
«: March 31, 2009, 12:06:46 AM»
I've noticed a big trend going around.  Maybe I was just blind to it before or I didn't want to see it but...

The phrase "guilty by association" sums it up.  I myself and some of my friends are outcasted because of who we choose to talk to or sit by, not only in furcadia, but in real life too, and have been suffering that for a long, long time.

I see people losing friends left and right because of who they sat by for a day or who they did a trade with, who they're friends with, who they took a commission from, and so many other reasons that just seem stupid and childish.  It's always the same thing: "I hate so and so because they hang out with so and so.  By my logic they're exactly the same in every single way so I hate them too!"

The topic:  Is it really fair to the person being treating badly?  Did they ever have a chance to speak up for themselves or to prove that they weren't the same as the ONE person causing others to judge them?  Do you think this is the right way to interact with someone that you don't know and oh, I dont know, end up good friends with?  Does it accomplish anything to act this way to completely neutral party?

I know this is a touchy subject, and I don't want this thread to get locked for stupidity.  Please keep comments to others that can be taken as flames in PM's or whispers, not here!  I simply want to know what other people think about this kind of treatment, not whatever problem you had with so and so.  Stay on topic!

Tell me your thoughts on this, FAM-goers.


Offline Douche

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #1: March 31, 2009, 12:20:29 AM»
Hmmmm, where to start. Well, as a past experience, I have had this happen to me before, both on Furc and IRL. Me and some friends dealt with this problem IRL when a buddy of mine broke up with his girlfriend, and people started to "drift apart" you could say. Apparently, everyone who socialized with my buddy of mine was outcast and labeled "assholes" because apparently he didn't break up with her in the most friendly way (though I've not heard of many break ups that didn't end up nasty).

So, I found that to be a little retarded and sad on my other friends part because we all got along up until that point then POOF, the blink of an eye people were getting angry at one another over this situation. I didn't really care much after awhile in that situation to be honest though, because we merely avoided each other after a little while when the hostility died down.

BUT, it seems that Furc related incidents just can't be let go. I've seen my fair share of drama, and I hate it as much as the next person, unless you are the kind of person who WANTS drama, but that's not my case.

When I even tried to explain the situation at hand in both cases to the individuals who started the whole affair, they just wouldn't listen to reason. It would seem the type of person in both these cases were the "my way or the highway" type of people who simply wouldn't listen to someone else and were just completely self-centered.

Overall, I think the moral of this is that people really need to just listen to one another and learn to actually take some opinions from other people and not be so god damn stuck up all the time. 'NOUGH SAID!
Contact on: Douche, Asmund or Voorn
~Alts For Sale~

Offline RIKKI

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #2: March 31, 2009, 12:21:51 AM»
Its something that happens everywhere, and I think people do it to be cool.
Fit in with the rest and what not.
Its happened to me, and I'll admit that I've done it myself to others.

Really, it wouldn't kill someone to break from the mold and go fourth to talk to one of those associated with a group your own group of friends don't agree with.
That way you actually have a mind of your own and don't wind up like a mindless turkey or whatever.
You may like the person, you may not, but you know because YOU wanted to.
Not because some pompous ass declares it so.
But the fear of being outcast and chastised by your supposed friends is always something that stops that ability to be your own person.

Ahh, wanting people to be their own person might be like asking for world peace.
Some want it, some don't, and the world keeps on spinnin', sadly :T


Lovedoll

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #3: March 31, 2009, 08:24:04 AM»
I've personally dealt with it myself, but often times I found that the ones being shunned have given reason to for it to happen.

I don't think it's so much the whole "Omg you interacted with them" rather than a mistrust of some sort. A friend of mine right now is shunning most of his friends for the sake of his 10 year younger girlfriend who he keeps having fights with. He's putting her above others, even his own blood related brother (which never happened before in 27 years). He's giving people a reason to get upset when he suddenly starts hanging out with other people because, whether he intends to or not, they now believe he is going to cast them away in favor of someone he just met.

A lot of people have this mentality and it's often simply caused by one or two people close to them and suddenly 'taking sides', casting away even their own family in favor of a stranger. This branches off towards other friends and it's really just a vicious cycle. He doesn't deserve being spoken badly of, he's one of my best friends, but whichever woman he comes in contact with right now will receive an utmost critical stare and a lot of mistrust until she's (and he!) has proved herself to be different.

It's not the exact scenario described in the OP, but it's very, very similar, lmao.

It's really hard to take this topic in a general view as, from experience, each case is different. Sometimes it's just a silly fag without a brain and anything constructive to do so they go on random rampages without real reason. Other times someone got hurt and gets upset because of past experiences and the fear of it happening again. This is often concealed under a 'mightier than thou' attitude, because really, who wants to admit weaknesses so openly? So they go for straight out offense.

A lot of people were hurt in the past by people who 'just hung out one day' with someone else and then turned fully onto them, hurt them and couldn't do anything nice for each other anymore. It happens that likes and dislikes change and one group seems better suited than another. But if you've never given someone reason to mistrust you, you'll find (well, I found at least) that they don't even care where you hang out or who you do stuff with as long as that person isn't put before others.

I'd like to think that my friends don't care whom I hang out with because I've shown to them that regardless of what happens I'll stick to them. We're not just friends cause we hang out together after all. So, tl;dr. From my experience, if someone with a leveled head on their shoulders gets pissed off at you for hanging out elsewhere, it might be a good idea to question if you've ever given them a reason to feel that way. Because in the end, fear of losing someone to the dark side is purely a lacking trust in one's abilities to remain objective and fair, not so much a blinded fear of "YOU HANG OUT WITH THEM SO YOU'RE BAD BAD PEOPLE".

But again, my experience and my opinion. It probably doesn't apply to a lot of people. P:

Offline cial

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #4: March 31, 2009, 08:33:16 AM»
i tend to put up my hands in this scenario.

i don't care who middle-ground people talk to. whatever. i don't want them bringing the person i don't like around, because i don't want to have to endure listening to those people being dicks in front of me. i don't think it's unreasonable to feel that way.

people can be friends with whoever...as long as they don't constantly try to jam the two conflicting parties together.

though i have to say, on this subject...certain people i've grown none too fond of will 'block' me on alt or art trades specifically because of who i'm friends with as well. that CAUSED me to dislike them where i didn't before.

i mean i am a mellow guy. there are few people on furc who i will say i actively dislike. but those few i'll say it about? they were deffinitly the first ones to cast a stone, so to speak...
inhuman and otherwise amoral practices await.

Offline Narnia

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #5: March 31, 2009, 08:50:44 AM»
Guitly by association:

I run FAM.
Alt-traders are bad.
Therefore, I am bad.

Sucks how it works, huh? You can't change how people think though. If they don't let you stand alone then they aren't worth knowing.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Sookan

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #6: March 31, 2009, 10:14:50 AM»
my friends worship the ground i walk on and wouldn't dare talk to anyone i didn't like
i gave them all numbers because it's easier to remember than names
keep your mouth shut, 11.

Offline Atheist

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #7: March 31, 2009, 10:36:54 AM»
This is an age old war of maturity we're all facing here and Furcadia is overran with younglings who enjoy bad mouthing or elitists who enjoy their pedestal a bit much, but whatever the case may be we have to accept that there will be discrimination against others no matter where we go.

I had a horrific run-in myself with a friend I was simply trying to help out. Little did I know what I was getting into. Its innocent situations that can turn things into a huge mess and gain you all sorts of unexpected titles and unnecessary spite.

Needless to say, it isn't fair, but there's not a damn thing we can do about other than turn the other cheek or lower ourselves to their less than accepting ways. What I dislike most is the animosity people give when you're an unexpected visitor in their little circle of friends. That irritates the piss out of me. If you want a private, holier-than-thou group session, make a dream and pose in there, other than that, there's no harm done in someone staking a public place as a spot to hang.

Furcadia is filled with needless drama though. That's probably why we have threads like these. Everyone needs a place to vent. In fact, there's this place in Livejournal that's called Bad-something-or-other where LJers can literally pick people they loathe and rant away about them to any and all extent. I, myself, don't participate in that community, but if there was a place where Furcadia players could rant about other players specifically, I can only imagine what sort of things could possibly go on there...
   
Dirk | Atheist | Foxen

Offline Masha

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #8: March 31, 2009, 11:58:48 AM»
It's something that's always happened for forever, yeah.

Personally, if I see an association between someone and a person I dislike, I won't immediately outcast them, but I sure will be very suspicious of them, and likely less willing to give them a second chance. But I will give them a first chance, though I will not go out of my way to make that chance happen.

To just all out hate someone is a bit silly though. UHHH I might add more.

Offline Creek

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #9: March 31, 2009, 12:17:54 PM»
Though this happened back in like. October. Me and a friend who were like sisters had a spat, she over heard some rumors going around, DECIDED to believe them and never talk to me about it, and now every oppurtunity she gets, she drags away friends that i talk to, or yells their name, or huggles on them.

Though it irritates me because she's extremely childish on how she handles fights and grudges, she's apparently also spreading shit about me and saying ' oh she's gonna talk about you behind yer back, dont be friends with her.' I've already lost my old hangout place because of her, because i don't want anymore god damn drama in my life, but it seems that no matter where i go, she still just gives me the '>>'  or the ">=|" look. So yeah. Drama central.

On furc, i've had it happen before as well. Merely because i'm 'annoying' or 'Naia Nerd', or 'FurNFag'. And due to that, i'm kinda shunned by some, who are all like " OMG THEY HANG OUT AT FLUFF PIT, THEY MUST BE AN ASS/DICKWEED" or " OMG THEY HANG OUT AT YHS, THEYRE A FUCKING YIFFING SLUTTY FREAK OMG" heh. NOTHXKBAI. I don't yiff, i'm more AFK than active, and when i'm in Naia i'm just all like :3 the whole time.

Guilty by association is a major thing in my school unfortunately. Farmers make fun of Goths/Punks/Emos[they dont seem to understand there's a difference there] and associates everyone who wears BLACK or HANGS OUT with them to be one of them, and makes fun of them. Then its the same way back. Its ridiculous. I'm friends with alot of people, but most the time i get asked ' Y u Frend wit dat ho?" Its stupid.
I NO LONGER LOG ONTO FURCADIA

Offline Hugo

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #10: March 31, 2009, 12:59:43 PM»
People are animals. Once a wolf is outcast from a pack, the others will kill it if it comes too close to the packlands.

I think some people are capable of acting against human nature, but most people are too weak-willed so they just go with it.

_________________

Offline Altria

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #11: March 31, 2009, 01:58:27 PM»
My take on the situation is if you're going to judge me because you don't like who I talk to, you're shallow, need to grow up, and are probably missing out on a lot of great friends because of your insecurity.

My friend's boyfriend told her that he didn't want her being friends with me, because I'm friends with someone who they had a falling out with. I just kind of lol'd when she told me, because it's absolutely ridiculous. I may be friends with someone who they don't like, but I don't bash them behind their backs, and neither does the chick I'm friends with when we're alone.

We're in college but apparently this kid still hasn't graduated high school yet.
contact: altria, meiko

Offline Narnia

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #12: March 31, 2009, 02:26:17 PM»
Can I ask why it is NOT okay to judge someone by who they talk to, or associate with? I will tell you straight up that I find it socially acceptable to stereotype. I will also justify this position with the fact that I have a degree in sociology.

If you hang out with a bunch of hoodies, you are more likely than not a hoodie.

If you hang out with a bunch of scientists, you are more likely than not a scientist.

If you hang out with a bunch of (insert almost any stereotype here), you are more likely than not a (insert same stereotype).

So why can I NOT judge you by who you hang out with? It saves me a lot of time and stress of getting to know you. If I don't like hoodies or scientists, why should I bother talking to them? Despite how many of you say that this isn't your logic, I assure you it is.

At some point or another you will look at someone. You will then say to yourself, "Wow, they look like a (insert stereotype here)." I don't like (that stereotype). I'm not going over there.

I also promise you that someone will look at you and do the same thing.

Does it suck. Sometimes.

Is it s socially relevant and useful tool. I believe so.

I already showed you how this is flawed on a simple level, but it won't stop anyone from doing it. So for effect, let me elaborate on my last one.

I own FAM.
FAM is for alt traders.
Therefore, I must be an alt trader. (As we all know, I'm not.)
Alt traders are bad people. (Which we know is true. ;) )
Therefore, I am a bad person.
Because alt traders are bad and I am a bad person, FAM must therefore be bad.
"The views expressed in this message are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the Furcadia Alt Market, Dragon's Eye Production, or Furcadia."

Lovedoll

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #13: March 31, 2009, 03:03:10 PM»
Quote
Can I ask why it is NOT okay to judge someone by who they talk to, or associate with?


Because I would have missed out on some absolutely fucking AMAZING friends if I always thought so shallow. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I have learned that the best friends come from the most surprising and unexpecting corners in life.

Sookan

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #14: March 31, 2009, 03:24:37 PM»
Quote
I will tell you straight up that I find it socially acceptable to stereotype. I will also justify this position with the fact that I have a degree in sociology.


having a degree in sociology = justifyably being a shallow prick?

ok i was obviously kidding in my last post. i always try not to judge people. i've done it - i'll give that to the textbook hero over there, but i also learned from it. judging people by who they talk to is completely stupid, too...

alright there might be people in the world you don't like, but if you never talk to them, how do you know if you like them or not..?

Offline Creek

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #15: March 31, 2009, 03:45:21 PM»
Quote from: "Narnia"
I will also justify this position with the fact that I have a degree in sociology.

If you hang out with a bunch of hoodies, you are more likely than not a hoodie.

If you hang out with a bunch of scientists, you are more likely than not a scientist.

If you hang out with a bunch of (insert almost any stereotype here), you are more likely than not a (insert same stereotype).
.


I hang out with cutters, yet i dont cut.

I hang out with gang riders, yet i'm not a gangster.

I have out with sexual pricks, yet i'm far from sexual.

Do i have to continue? Just cause someone has a degree in something, doesn't make them always correct on everything. I've seen this before in a doctor's office and in a therapist's office. You may have credit, you may have degrees, but jsut cause a person hangs out with this group, doesnt make them one of them
I NO LONGER LOG ONTO FURCADIA

Lovedoll

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #16: March 31, 2009, 04:12:11 PM»
Having to throw in "I have a degree in ..." = I'm afraid my argument won't be valid if I somehow don't shove my achievements into their faces, because everyone knows a degree will make everyone believe me instantly.

Vince

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #17: March 31, 2009, 04:30:50 PM»
i'm going to say that as a student of sociology right now, narnia is right. it's basic sociology. you guys don't seem to get it. once you actually fucking know what you're talking about, then you'll see.

l2social groups.

Offline Sync

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #18: March 31, 2009, 04:33:22 PM»
how on earth is narnia being a shallow prick? he's being pratical.

ok let's say i hate talking about music and i see a bunch of musicians. why would i approach them? i am a musician myself and talk with my musical friends often about music and my peers all know me as an avid musician. if they didn't want to talk about music, why bother even coming over to greet me? i'm not offended, just they don't want to talk to me because i don't share their interests.

also going off what glitbiter said, if somebody is hanging out with a group of people i dislike, i won't approach and try to get to know them. i mean, i'm sure they're a fine person and all, but sooner or later, i'll have meet the people i hate again and be in a bad mood thus making my new friend in a bad mood, so why bother? seems like a bunch of wasted effort where nobody wins.

Vince

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #19: March 31, 2009, 04:35:54 PM»
Quote from: "Sync"
how on earth is narnia being a shallow prick? he's being pratical.


people are being rather shallow themselves. they don't know a damn thing about sociology and they're assuming.

Sookan

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #20: March 31, 2009, 04:51:42 PM»
well i'm taking a degree in making friends
so i'm right

just because you're studying fucking sociology doesn't mean you know everything about how everyone's mind works

Offline Sheikah

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #21: March 31, 2009, 04:52:11 PM»
stay on topic, let's not get off track here

Vince

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #22: March 31, 2009, 04:53:44 PM»
Quote from: "Sookan"
well i'm taking a degree in making friends
so i'm right

just because you're studying fucking sociology doesn't mean you know everything about how everyone's mind works


that's not sociology LOL it's psychology. get your fucking subjects right before you try and piss all over anything.

Vince

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #23: March 31, 2009, 05:13:53 PM»
you people who are so opposed to narnia's ideals are so infuriatingly incorrect. maybe if you'd go and sit down in a busy public area, you'd get the gist of it.

sociology isn't that difficult to understand. you just have to get over yourself and realize you are not unique. you fit into a social group and a social category. you are part of the social structure and you conform to provide for the basic needs of society.

narnia's "i have a degree in sociology" proves his credibility, and me backing him up with my current academic enrollment only proves his claims further.

you're not in the in-group and you don't agree with it? shit sucks. you're in the out-group.

you are a stereotype. you hang out with people who have similar interests whether they be apparent or hidden. you may not agree with this, but you people are so cleverly ignorant and stupid.

(narnia does not promote this message. this is all me.)

Lovedoll

"Guilty by association"
«Reply #24: March 31, 2009, 05:44:19 PM»
Lolz. It's not that Narnia's point is invalid, it's the way he's slapping his e-dick around trying to be impressive with his degree as if it somehow validates his point more. It doesn't take someone with a degree in the subject to understand that people get together based on the same interests. Even a 7 year old knows this when they read a magazine and find a pen-pal to write to about their favorite subject.

Also, my point remains. If I were to stick to a stereotype I would miss out on a whole lot of good things in life. Sticking to what you like is all fine and dandy, but narrowing your world down to one or two things solely because you like it best is shallow and narrow minded.

Living life is about trying new things and doing things out of the ordinary. If we all stuck to the same kind of people every day for the rest of our lives it would be a boring life to live. So yeah, I don't think it's okay to judge someone by who they talk to or associate with.

If you've given up on it before trying you can never enhance your life, for better or worse.

 

supersaver